Curse

RTSFirebat · Nov 25, 2008, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Why do people add the word "way" after everything...? the title of this thread gives me a giggle. Still to keep on topic people should play whatever works best and still is enjoyable.

zwei2stein · Nov 25, 2008, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

Why do people add the word "way" after everything...? the title of this thread gives me a giggle. Still to keep on topic people should play whatever works best and still is enjoyable.

Because it is way of doing something.

Because -way simply became suffix denoting that word describes teambuild.

Avarre · Nov 25, 2008, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Because it is way of doing something.

Because -way simply became suffix denoting that word describes teambuild.

Because they heard of 'i-way' and are bandwagoners in naming their builds.

Abedeus · Nov 25, 2008, 02:56 PM // 14:56

What someone already noticed, balanced teams in case of OMGWEAREGETTINGPWND CAN recover. Either with a concentration of SY+Aegis+TNTF and RUN AWAY WHILE MELEES AGGRO FOES or just one person with a hard rez like Rebirth running away and rezzing the team.

Gimmicks die when their tank dies.

-Lotus- · Nov 25, 2008, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

Why do people add the word "way" after everything...?

because IWAY was the first recognizable team build. addind -way to the end of something explains that it is a team build. It's a tradition, no one is saying that balanced groups are a gimmick.

gimmicks are any set team build.

Killed u man · Nov 25, 2008, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Balanced is abusing MANY different overpowered aspects of the game, and then bragging to other people you can play "balanced".

Gimmick is abusing one, or few, different overpowered aspects of the game, often to a higher succes than balanced, and then usually not care about e-honor.

In PvE: face it, a gimmick build will ALWAYS be better than a balanced build.
E.G.: In a certain area (Urgoz, UW, Fow, etc), it's ALWAYS THE SAME ROUTINE. In other words: Why run a balanced build, than can adjust to MANY situations, but is only mildly good in everyone of those, when you can run a specifiek counter, aka farming, build for that area?

Ursanway was lame, but there was no denying it, it was THE BETTER BUILD in pretty much every top PvE location. Yes, Ursan was overpowered as fcuk, and required no skill, but that doesn't change the fact that it WAS the better build.

The same way now a Barrage/Pet, or a SF farm, will do faster in, let's say Urgoz, a balanced will always be "slower", concidering they have more utility, and "useless" skills for situation that will never happen in that given area.

Regardless of fun, I play Monk, so I don't care what group the "damage dealers" form. I do find it sad for the Paragons, and other "left-out" imba farming professions that they simply don't have a chance in "pugging" in these elite areas.
Nonetheless, as I Monk, I prefer to "farm" Urgoz in 1 hours, than "balance" it in 3...

FoxBat · Nov 25, 2008, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Reading that thread about how a certain guild was 'good' for being fast with Cry reminded me of, well, any gimmick spike GvG guild that talked tough because they were high on the ladder.

Good players adapt to counter gimmicks, AI doesn't.

Whether cryway makes you "scrub" has little to do with which build has the fastest clear times. (I don't know TBH.)

Koning · Nov 25, 2008, 03:17 PM // 15:17

I play this game to have fun, not to fall asleep. Guess that leaves only one choice left

zwei2stein · Nov 25, 2008, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Because they heard of 'i-way' and are bandwagoners in naming their builds.

I'd let that to be decided by someone with Linguistics & Sociology background, but i don't think that suffixing build name with -way could be considered just kids trying to be cool anymore.

It's more like part of GW jargon & gramatics.

Avarre · Nov 25, 2008, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

In PvE: face it, a gimmick build will ALWAYS be better than a balanced build

Everyone knows that. Gimmicks rely on minmaxing to get the optimal effect - obviously they're going to be powerful. That doesn't change that fact that believing you are in any way a good player because you run gimmicks is stupidity.

The rest of your post is almost painful to read, especially where you assume balanced builds in a certain area run skills that would not be used in that area. I'm also not sure why you are so aggressively asserting that gimmicks are both simple and powerful (why else would people use them?), perhaps you have some issues with e-honor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

It's more like part of GW jargon & gramatics.

By this point, yes, you are correct.

Elentari · Nov 25, 2008, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Hmm well it's arguable what you can classify as "gimmick" or not.

From what I've read so far the topic started out as differentiating team builds as balanced or gimmick by sorting the general frontline-midline-backline template as balanced, and spank-and-tank spike builds as gimmick. According to that classification, yes I'd say balanced allows far more professions to be included in the build, and can deal pretty well with most if not all aspects of pve. But then the so called gimmick spike builds exist for a reason, and it's that they do accomplish certain specific areas faster, because they are built for it (obviously in both cases not considering fail pugs).

Further down the thread, someone seemed to suggest a different classification, that gimmicks are builds that rely on a small number of overpowered skills to exploit game mechanics and getting ahead of others while using less skill. Although this correctly defines the term "gimmick", I think it's important that it's set apart from the original classification previously proposed.

So now what we're really discussing is the nature of the skills involved in both types of builds, or more specifically, Save Yourselves and Cry of Pain (sure you can run "balanced" without save yourselves, and there's other "gimmicks" that don't revolve around cry of pain, but this is the main point i want to raise). Now let's face it, you really can't successfully argue that either one of these is more of a gimmick skill than the other: Save yourselves alone allows your entire party to tank massive amounts of damage, allowing you to work the rest of your builds to focus on offense and making quick work of whatever you encounter; and Cry of Pain's large-area-of-effect compressed raw damage makes impressively fast kills on clustered foes, at the cost of allowing only tanks, cryers (generally mesmers and eles) and monks into the party. I play both types of builds in pve, and I don't see anything wrong in it, but I really don't see one as more "balanced" in terms of skill and power than the other.

Basically I think that most pve builds nowadays rely on inherently broken skills, but since it's available to us (which by the way I don't think they should be -> re-work the efficiency of pve skills so they don't make everything "easy-mode"). In any case, you play however you like, but it's unnecessary to undermine other people because they run builds that you think are overpowered and "lame", and as a result refuse to run it youself.

In the end if you're playing with good players you can rack up any sensible build and become efficient at it, and then proceed to thinking you're pve gods and calling everyone else bad =P

Avarre · Nov 25, 2008, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elentari

Hmm well it's arguable what you can classify as "gimmick" or not.
From what I've read so far the topic started out as differentiating team builds as balanced or gimmick by sorting the general frontline-midline-backline template as balanced, and spank-and-tank spike builds as gimmick. According to that classification, yes I'd say balanced allows far more professions to be included in the build, and can deal pretty well with most if not all aspects of pve. But then the so called gimmick spike builds exist for a reason, and it's that they do accomplish certain specific areas faster, because they are built for it (obviously in both cases not considering fail pugs).
Further down the thread, someone seemed to suggest a different classification, that gimmicks are builds that rely on a small number of overpowered skills to exploit game mechanics and getting ahead of others while using less skill. Although this correctly defines the term "gimmick", I think it's important that it's set apart from the original classification previously proposed.
So now what we're really discussing is the nature of the skills involved in both types of builds, or more specifically, Save Yourselves and Cry of Pain (sure you can run "balanced" without save yourselves, and there's other "gimmicks" that don't revolve around cry of pain, but this is the main point i want to raise). Now let's face it, you really can't successfully argue that either one of these is more of a gimmick skill than the other: Save yourselves alone allows your entire party to tank massive amounts of damage, allowing you to work the rest of your builds to focus on offense and making quick work of whatever you encounter; and Cry of Pain's large-area-of-effect compressed raw damage makes impressively fast kills on clustered foes, at the cost of allowing only tanks, cryers (generally mesmers and eles) and monks into the party. I play both types of builds in pve, and I don't see anything wrong in it, but I really don't see one as more "balanced" in terms of skill and power than the other.
Basically I think that most pve builds nowadays rely on inherently broken skills, but since it's available to us (which by the way I don't think they should be -> re-work the efficiency of pve skills so they don't make everything "easy-mode"). In any case, you play however you like, but it's unnecessary to undermine other people because they run builds that you think are overpowered and "lame", and as a result refuse to run it youself.

SY teams are 'balanced' in the sense they tend to rely on a mix of mechanics and abilities, but that's not the same meaning as 'balanced' in terms of what's overpowered or not. I don't think anyone can argue that SY (or most of the PvE skills, really) are balanced in terms of power.

To give an example, eurospike was a balanced build in terms of not being a gimmick, but it was not balanced because the skills used were excessively good. And similarly to this discussion, nobody doubts guilds running that build were successful, but that definitely didn't mean they were good players.

Quote:

In the end if you're playing with good players you can rack up any sensible build and become efficient at it, and then proceed to thinking you're pve gods and calling everyone else bad =P

u mad?

Ultima pyromancer · Nov 25, 2008, 04:01 PM // 16:01

I enjoy playing either.
I don't care whats considered lame or abuse, i enjoy playing the game my own way. Telling people that what they find fun in the game is lame or boring is just pointless. We all prefer a different playing style, some may love to button mash 1 2 3, some may love being on vent strategically planning out every pull and hell, some people like to not play the game at all and sit on these forums playing god.

So agree to disagree.

$0.02

isamu kurosawa · Nov 25, 2008, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Balanced is abusing MANY different overpowered aspects of the game, and then bragging to other people you can play "balanced".

Gimmick is abusing one, or few, different overpowered aspects of the game, often to a higher succes than balanced, and then usually not care about e-honor.

In PvE: face it, a gimmick build will ALWAYS be better than a balanced build.
E.G.: In a certain area (Urgoz, UW, Fow, etc), it's ALWAYS THE SAME ROUTINE. In other words: Why run a balanced build, than can adjust to MANY situations, but is only mildly good in everyone of those, when you can run a specifiek counter, aka farming, build for that area?

Ursanway was lame, but there was no denying it, it was THE BETTER BUILD in pretty much every top PvE location. Yes, Ursan was overpowered as fcuk, and required no skill, but that doesn't change the fact that it WAS the better build.

The same way now a Barrage/Pet, or a SF farm, will do faster in, let's say Urgoz, a balanced will always be "slower", concidering they have more utility, and "useless" skills for situation that will never happen in that given area.

Regardless of fun, I play Monk, so I don't care what group the "damage dealers" form. I do find it sad for the Paragons, and other "left-out" imba farming professions that they simply don't have a chance in "pugging" in these elite areas.
Nonetheless, as I Monk, I prefer to "farm" Urgoz in 1 hours, than "balance" it in 3...

I'd have to disagree with pretty much everything you have seid. THe speed of a balanced team is reflected in the skill and knowledge of the players. I don't think i have ever done a balanced urgoz run in the past year that has taken longer than 1h20mins.
Fun & speed is better than boring and speed imo. Nobody in out teams takes any "useless" skills, apart from a few extra resses.

faraaz · Nov 25, 2008, 05:52 PM // 17:52

I prefer gimmick way...

Profit maximisation is the name of the game. Balanced way died with the release of Factions...

Arkantos · Nov 25, 2008, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

Profit maximisation is the name of the game. Balanced way died with the release of Factions...

Funny, because around the same time, the skill of the PvE community started going down. Coincidence?

faraaz · Nov 25, 2008, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Funny, because around the same time, the skill of the PvE community started going down. Coincidence?

WtS Arkantos pre-nerf Shadow Form

gerg-nad · Nov 25, 2008, 06:25 PM // 18:25

First, I find it amusing to say builds are gimmicks as every build better be synergistic in some fashion or you will be unsuccessful. Is there a difference between a Hoj-Poj group of folks and a team, I say there is. When you play football is everyone the running back or the center? No you have roles and responsibilities.

Second, I, like many others simply want to play the game not stand around for an hour balancing skills before even starting. Because of this I am a proponent of team builds, not individual builds (unless they are designed for soloing).

Knowledge about a build and area are critical to success, but what I find annoying is the "punkness" which goes beyond arrogance many seem to have, which is often why PUGs are unsuccessful. I find it very hard to respect anyone calling someone a noob in a derogatory manner. Some may be less experience with an area or skill bar than others, but one should help them not berate them. I take solace in the fact that most of the folks who continue with the attitude of I am better than you and you are a "noob" mentality, do not have their drivers license and cannot vote.

Sorry I got on my soapbox.

high priestess anya · Nov 25, 2008, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

I think you also forgot to mention that Guild Balanced > Guild Gimmic as well.

lolwut ima go make a new thread about DOA HM non-gimmickway
i garauntee it will be empty up until me and my friends post a completion time in it.
we are gunna start making a non-gimmick build for DOA HM some time soon and the completion time will mean that some of us will be up until early hours hence why we prefer gimmicks as its fast and effective, the people who moan about gimmickways are the people who are incapable of learning "how to destroy" with gimmick builds. those guys just plod along slow as hell, as slow as none gimmick builds hence the hatred towards them.
Hopefully my next thread will shed some light on the quality of guilds such as TAM and SMS.
Go run your curbstomp in DOA HM and im fairly sure you will come back after 10 minutes saying "even the margonites where laughing at us"

Tyla · Nov 25, 2008, 07:47 PM // 19:47

I think this thread has turned it's gear from post #39.